fatboy1271
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:12 pm
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Unwanted Vertical Lines

Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:19 pm

The lines in my prints are getting worse and I'm too ignorant about the inner working of 3D Printing/Slicers to be able to figure out why... CR-10S with an E3D V6 Hotend.

As I was typing this and looking again at the issue I may have realized something about the shifting of the line. You can see that the line shifts to the left about 25 layers up. I figure that's about 25 layers because I printed at 0.2mm and when I measure that distance it's about 50mm up before shifting.

When I first got my V6 Hotend I had a lot of trouble getting any good prints. I had the dual fans running at 100% and it's obvious why prints weren't good. Now I run the fans at 0% for the first 24 layers, see where I'm going with this, and then at layer 25 the dual fans come on at 25%. Those are the only fan states that I use.

Could the fans starting up "push" the line to the left? A better question is how do I eliminate the lines altogether?
Falcon 9 - Vertical Lines 03.png
Falcon 9 - Vertical Lines 02.png
E3D V6 - Fans.png
Creality CR-10S with E3D V6
CR-10 Ultimate Leveling Knob Attachment by Valstrath
Bowden Tube Clip by walter
CR-10 Heavy Duty customisable modular e3D V6 mount Volcano 5015 ABL by chito
#Let'sGoPens!

parallyze
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:18 am

Re: Unwanted Vertical Lines

Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:57 am

Are you talking about the massive "blobby" retracts when cooling kicks in?
Falcon 9 - Vertical Lines 03.png
Green ones look okay, red ones don't. That is if there's the retracts, hard to say without factory/gcode file. Print speeds are the same all the way through the print?

If cooling on/off is the only difference:
Make sure the fans are not blowing at the heater block, a silicone sock won't fix that problem. In combination with wrong PID tuning that will
make your hotend heat much more than the thermistor might report....

Could the fans starting up "push" the line to the left?

Not very likely...
A better question is how do I eliminate the lines altogether?
Check at what point this happens. If this happens after retracts then there's probably too much material left which
then gets "smeared" along the perimeter, giving the ripple effect. Check options like retract on layer change and so on...

parallyze
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:18 am

Re: Unwanted Vertical Lines

Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:03 am

fatboy1271 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:19 pm
E3D V6 - Fans.png
btw, the fan on your hotend is mounted the wrong way. It's sucking air away from the cold zone which usually doesn't work as well as pushing the air through the fins (and as recommended by e3d).

fatboy1271
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:12 pm
Contact: Google+ Twitter YouTube

Re: Unwanted Vertical Lines

Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:29 pm

parallyze wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:03 am
fatboy1271 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:19 pm
E3D V6 - Fans.png
btw, the fan on your hotend is mounted the wrong way. It's sucking air away from the cold zone which usually doesn't work as well as pushing the air through the fins (and as recommended by e3d).
Fixed! I looked at the V6 assembly instructions and saw what you mean. Good eye and thanks!!!
Creality CR-10S with E3D V6
CR-10 Ultimate Leveling Knob Attachment by Valstrath
Bowden Tube Clip by walter
CR-10 Heavy Duty customisable modular e3D V6 mount Volcano 5015 ABL by chito
#Let'sGoPens!

fatboy1271
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:12 pm
Contact: Google+ Twitter YouTube

Re: Unwanted Vertical Lines

Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:13 pm

This is a long post, so I first want to start off with a big Thank You!!! I greatly appreciate when people take time out of their day to help others!
parallyze wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:57 am
Are you talking about the massive "blobby" retracts when cooling kicks in?
Yes!
parallyze wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:57 am
Green ones look okay, red ones don't. That is if there's the retracts, hard to say without factory/gcode file. Print speeds are the same all the way through the print?

What you marked in red is when the fans kick in.
Factory file is attached, but Gcode is too big to attach here, so I've shared in from my Google Drive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hLPeeM ... sp=sharing
Yes, print speeds never change.
parallyze wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:57 am
If cooling on/off is the only difference:
Make sure the fans are not blowing at the heater block, a silicone sock won't fix that problem. In combination with wrong PID tuning that will
make your hotend heat much more than the thermistor might report....
Fans are the only thing that I can tell is different. I ran PID Tuning when I reassembled my V6 after the last time I took it apart; however, I will rerun it today!
A better question is how do I eliminate the lines altogether?
parallyze wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:57 am
Check at what point this happens. If this happens after retracts then there's probably too much material left which
then gets "smeared" along the perimeter, giving the ripple effect. Check options like retract on layer change and so on...
I've looked through the settings and sorry again for my ignorance. I see the Ooze Control and Ooze Control Behavior. After I PID Tune should I just start with Retraction Distance?
S3D - Ooze Control.PNG
S3D - Ooze Control.PNG (8.3 KiB) Viewed 201 times
S3D - Ooze Control Behavior.PNG
S3D - Ooze Control Behavior.PNG (7.45 KiB) Viewed 201 times
Attachments
Booster_Section_C.factory
(178.72 KiB) Downloaded 16 times
Creality CR-10S with E3D V6
CR-10 Ultimate Leveling Knob Attachment by Valstrath
Bowden Tube Clip by walter
CR-10 Heavy Duty customisable modular e3D V6 mount Volcano 5015 ABL by chito
#Let'sGoPens!

parallyze
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:18 am

Re: Unwanted Vertical Lines

Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:38 pm

Hi,
fatboy1271 wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:13 pm
I've looked through the settings and sorry again for my ignorance. I see the Ooze Control and Ooze Control Behavior. After I PID Tune should I just start with Retraction Distance?
it's really hard to recommend something without seeing the device "doing it's job"... :D

Had a look at the factory file - and I just have to ask: Why are there so many processes? Do you manage your print settings this way instead of using profiles? It's a bit confusing... :D

Anyways, looking at the slicing preview (I chose the 0.20 process) retracts seem to be located where your prints are showing problems.

There's a few things to watch out for when retracts occur, especially if using a custom mounted hotend.

1. There's two versions of the e3d v6 - the "none metal" and the "all metal" one. Sometimes people get confused by this and don't put in the PTFE tube inside the all metal one. There's PTFE tubing in both of them. Inside the regular one the PTFE goes all the way down into the nozzle, inside the all metal version it ends at the throat/heat break inside the cold zone:
WiRIv.jpg
It's extremely important there's no play up/down when everything is mounted. Also the bowden fittings on top should have no play. If the PTFE tube is missing the filament will have too much play inside the cold zone, getting nice retracts will be very hard then... ^^

If everything is mounted the correct way I'd think you should try retraction distances of ~1.2mm - 1.8mm using a bowden setup. 5mm sounds too much on a e3d v6. If you have a look at the picture you'll notice that you're starting to pull the filament right out of the melt zone. This might lenghten the filament when pulling it out on a retract and reaching the cold zone, leading to deviations when "un-retracting" again.

Using a negative "restart distance" might be another workaround for this.

Just saw your post about the fan: Good! This is probably not relevant for the problem you're seeing right now. But bad cooling can lead to "heat creeping" and will sometimes only show up on prints with very low flowrates (low layer heights, thin extrusion widths, slow speeds) and materials with low melting points (PLA).

Good luck :)

parallyze
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:18 am

Re: Unwanted Vertical Lines

Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:18 pm

Notes/Edits:
Looking at your pictures and the factory file/gcode(which I don't have access to, but doesn't really matter) this is why I assume there's something wrong with your retract settings:
re1.JPG
re2.JPG
The "blobs" seem to appear each time when your printer starts after a retract on the inner walls. You absolutely shouldn't see this on the outside later. Hence my suspicion there's way too much material coming out of the nozzle... ^^

More notes, but I don't want to drift too far away:

- Speed settings, you can probably go faster without sacrificing quality
- Test retract settings with two objects, this cylindrical object might not show up problems like when travelling to another object
- Speaking of travelling: Travel moves at 80mm/s (4800mm/min) look really slow, but this depends on the printers mechanics. If everything is running smooth I'd expect that machine to do travel moves at ~120-150mm/s without trouble.
- retracts: You could simply place them in a specific position: layer tab -> start points -> chose start point closest to specific location -> X 300, Y 0 for example. But on other objects this could lead to other problems (layers starting on steep overhangs and such), so I really suggest finding out why your retracts look like that right now... ^^

fatboy1271
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:12 pm
Contact: Google+ Twitter YouTube

Re: Unwanted Vertical Lines

Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:51 pm

I'll start again with my thanks and appreciation for your time!
parallyze wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:57 am
it's really hard to recommend something without seeing the device "doing it's job"... :D
100% understood
Had a look at the factory file - and I just have to ask: Why are there so many processes? Do you manage your print settings this way instead of using profiles? It's a bit confusing... :D
Glad I was able to make you laugh... Even worse, they're duplicated between Processes and Profiles. I find the Processes easier to see versus a drop down that has a smaller number of visable options without scrolling up and down.
Anyways, looking at the slicing preview (I chose the 0.20 process) retracts seem to be located where your prints are showing problems.
You chose the correct Process. I didn't realize you could turn on Retraction in S3D and see the blobs... #Noob 8-)
There's two versions of the e3d v6 - the "none metal" and the "all metal" one.
I have an All Metal V6 and outside of the fan on the Heatsink facing the wrong way, I feel like I was pretty meticulous in following the instructions. For what it's worth I replaced the stock Heatbreak, I snapped the original, with a 'Titanium V6 heatbreak V2.3 by 3D passion' and I also use Capricorn PTFE.

There's no play in the PTFE tube at the V6; however, there is a slight amount of play at the Extruder. I'll look into that.
If everything is mounted the correct way I'd think you should try retraction distances of -1.2mm - 1.8mm using a bowden setup. 5mm sounds too much on a e3d v6. If you have a look at the picture you'll notice that you're starting to pull the filament right out of the melt zone. This might lenghten the filament when pulling it out on a retract and reaching the cold zone, leading to deviations when "un-retracting" again.

Using a negative "restart distance" might be another workaround for this.
Wow, that's quite a difference and why someone like me "relies" on someone like you ;) Hmm, well I actually went back to the assembly instructions that E3D has and I stopped at PID Tuning. The next step, which is the last step, is to adjust your Retraction...! DOH

Attached is a screenshot, but it says start at 1mm and don't go more than 2mm. At least I wasn't getting any jams from the 5mm setting.
More notes, but I don't want to drift too far away:
You are Awesome!!! I love all of this info! I will work on the retraction first and then start to hit these suggestions. Oh, and my Enclosure was delivered today so I have one more thing to distract me with 8-)

Many thanks and I greatly appreciate all of your time!
fat
E3D V6 - Retraction Suggestions.PNG
E3D V6 - Retraction Suggestions.PNG (12.64 KiB) Viewed 127 times
Creality CR-10S with E3D V6
CR-10 Ultimate Leveling Knob Attachment by Valstrath
Bowden Tube Clip by walter
CR-10 Heavy Duty customisable modular e3D V6 mount Volcano 5015 ABL by chito
#Let'sGoPens!

parallyze
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:18 am

Re: Unwanted Vertical Lines

Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:08 pm

fatboy1271 wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:51 pm
I'll start again with my thanks and appreciation for your time!
Thanks :D
Glad I was able to make you laugh... Even worse, they're duplicated between Processes and Profiles. I find the Processes easier to see versus a drop down that has a smaller number of visable options without scrolling up and down.
Just make sure you always have a copy of your profiles/a recent factory file in case anything messes up. Setting everything up from
scratch again is not the nicest way to waste some time... ;)

I remember one of the "tip of the days" or something here on the website mentioning this, maybe you'd like to take a look at it. Using processes
will make everything quite confusing the moment you start to use different processes for a single print... ^^

One thing I like to do very often is using a single process for the first layer only. If bed adhesion is not a problem I sometimes use this to "design" the front parts of some of my prints by printing infill only (30%-50%) on the first layer, followed by solid layers afterwards. Reduces print times a bit and I absolutely don't like it if a big part is "ruined" because of one or two tiny spots on an otherwise nice solid layer (dent in the bed/buildtak).

If you have a look at the pictures from step 8 here you can see what I mean.
I have an All Metal V6 and outside of the fan on the Heatsink facing the wrong way, I feel like I was pretty meticulous in following the instructions. For what it's worth I replaced the stock Heatbreak, I snapped the original, with a 'Titanium V6 heatbreak V2.3 by 3D passion' and I also use Capricorn PTFE.
Had a look at the heatbreak. Looks like it should fit, the shoulder is clearly visible so it's hopefully not another "ptfe all the way through" clone with wrong pictures... :D
There's no play in the PTFE tube at the V6; however, there is a slight amount of play at the Extruder. I'll look into that.
Good idea. Depending on the position of the extruder and the way the bowden tubing moves this might cause the ptfe tubing move a bit instead of the filament inside.
Wow, that's quite a difference and why someone like me "relies" on someone like you ;) Hmm, well I actually went back to the assembly instructions that E3D has and I stopped at PID Tuning. The next step, which is the last step, is to adjust your Retraction...! DOH

:D
Attached is a screenshot, but it says start at 1mm and don't go more than 2mm. At least I wasn't getting any jams from the 5mm setting.
Most of the time jams somehow are connected to the object/print settings. Many retracts on small features or very slow printing speeds might show problems much, much faster...
You are Awesome!!! I love all of this info! I will work on the retraction first and then start to hit these suggestions. Oh, and my Enclosure was delivered today so I have one more thing to distract me with 8-)
...and while I can understand some people like to have an enclosure, make sure it fits the job. :)

If you do have a look at the e3d v6 specs you'll notice the temperature on the heat sink/cold zone has to be quite low. Putting the printer inside an enclosure might lead to problems (remember, "heat creep"? ^^) when printing materials like PLA. Keeping the cold zone cool enough is quite hard inside a box, especially if there's a heated bed inside. Consider adding fans to move at least some air in/out on prints with slow extrusion rates. If you're not using PLA at all this might be useless information, but I recommend reading a bit about it. One source would be forums, maybe you'll find interesting on the prusa forums. They made some changes to the extruder housing and so on because of the noctua fan not cooling the cold zone sufficiently in some situations. Also you'd might want to check the specs of your fan - as far as I can tell that's not the 30mm one coming with e3d hotends, looks like a 40mm one?

While they often do push more air than the smaller ones they often do have less static pressure...

Oh, and if you're curious: Have a look at the specs from "more professional" printers like maybe the makerbot method. You'll notice they do have quite low operating temperatures written in their manuals, usually somewhere in the 27°C - 32°C range.... ^^

If your primary concern is noise, don't expect too much from an enclosure. Mechanics should be pretty noiseless, most of the time it's the noise the steppers make driving people mad. Switching to trinamics using stealth mode/chop will reduce this much better than putting everything inside a IKEA Lack enclosure.

The good thing about relative simple 3d printers like those is: When using common materials like PLA you very often do not need any "special features" like Extra restart distance, coasting, wiping. Prints should look nice and clean already if everything is coming together well, so don't
get stuck on settings when there might be a mechanical solution/problem - maybe just overseen yet.

Years back I couldn't understand how e3d was talking about retract distances of 0.6-0.8mm on direct drive extruders. :mrgreen:

But after finding out many little tiny details about how it's all working together I can say: Yes, 0.6-0.8mm on direct drive does work very well :D
(Using PETG @ 1.2-1.4mm on direct drive, don't have a bowden extruder mounted to any of my printers right now)

Oh, and don't repeat the mistake I once made: Forgetting to hot-tighten everything. You won't notice this the first hours of printing. But one day you'll notice molten black plastic coming out of the upper thread from the heating block... :oops: :D
Many thanks and I greatly appreciate all of your time!
You're welcome :)

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