Lloyds3d
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:52 am

Support layers lifting

Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:18 am

Hi, I'm having a problem when printing this model where the first layers for the supports keeps lifting. The first image shows the underside of the model in Simplify 3D, you can see the supports along the front of the object, and the second shows where the lines of filament at the base of those supports that are not staying down, they just lift up. That section along the front of the model where the front angles away just won't work after many attempts.

I'm using an Ultimaker 2+. I'm printing at .05 layer with the extruder set to 210 degrees for ABS . I'm using the raft and brim, it's a large print so it might not needed it but that shouldn't be a problem either way.

Are there any settings that I might change that would help?
Thanks

Lloyd

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Lloyds3d
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:52 am

Re: Support layers lifting

Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:56 pm

I changed the layer setting to 0.8 and increased the fill density for the supports, that fixed the problem and it's printing ok now but at a lower resolution than I'd like. So it has something to do with the .05 layer resolution.

As I will want to print right down to 20 microns, any suggestions on a profile setting that might effect the support adhesion?

Lloyds3d
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:52 am

Re: Support layers lifting

Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:47 am

Increasing the layer height to .08 seems to have helped with the flimsy support adhesion, but I think my problem may be the extruder temp which I had at 210 degrees for this print. The supports aren't holding to the raft very well, the ones at the back came away completely...

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The supports even pulled away from the model which I've never seen before, but I'm getting some layer separation elsewhere on the model so I hope this is mostly to do with the extruder temp.

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My attempt at a workaround is to add some box models around the support bases. I hope this will provide some stability during the 23 hours print time, this time the layer height is going to be set at .06 and extruder temp. 220

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Heutinck
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:14 am

Re: Support layers lifting

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:04 am

what if you add a process for printing the raft and first layer at .08. and then another starting at the 2nd layer and printing that at .05? this should give you the adhesion of the support first layer and the resolution of the rest of the model you want.

KC_703
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:23 pm

Re: Support layers lifting

Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:31 am

210C sounds a little low for ABS... wait, I see you increased to 220C, which still seems a little low. Check the temp range from the filament manufacturer.

If you're using fan, try turning it off for the first few millimeters of the print. And keep it minimal further up in the print. Too much cooling will lead to splitting... which seems to be happening in your print also. Otherwise, its a beautiful print.

The idea is to promote adhesion between layers. ABS is stickiest when it's still in liquid form. At such a thin layer height, any cooling will solidify the ABS immediately. Sticking two solid pieces of ABS together doesn't work too well. :)

Lloyds3d
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:52 am

Re: Support layers lifting

Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:33 am

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll give those a try. The ABS filament I'm using temperature is 210-250, I prefer the lower end temp for better print quality. I could be wrong about that, but regarding the supports I had a better outcome but even with the reinforcement at the base a few of the tall supports fell over at the back. Are we sure this isn't a bug?

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Likewise the supports under the chin a bit of disaster. I prefer tree supports actually, I wish S3D had them, that would be great although the print came out ok even with these problems.
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On the left, the bust printed out on a Flashforge Dreamer, using Flashprint at 0.1 resolution. On the right the bust printed on the Ultimaker 2+ using S3D and set to .06 resolution, extruder 220 degrees and the print speed lowered to 2200 mm/min. So I'm getting a much better finish, much less cleanup of the model luckily. I'd glady go down to 20 micron layers but the model would take 4 or 5 days to print.
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User avatar
dkightley
Posts: 2100
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Support layers lifting

Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:49 am

I could be wrong about that, but regarding the supports I had a better outcome but even with the reinforcement at the base a few of the tall supports fell over at the back. Are we sure this isn't a bug?
Why is it that whenever something doesn't do what the user wants, then it's got to be a bug???

These supports fell over because they were tall, thin and not strong enough. You can't do anything about height, but they can be made thicker by adding some inflation distance and stronger by adding infill angles. A simple angle pattern is: 45, 45, 45, 45, 45, -45. This give one support layer in six at 90 degrees....an amazing increase in strength.

I've also noted that some of your failed supports are those that start part way up a sloping surface. Careful addition of manual supports (using varying resolutions) that start on the bed will help.
Doug Kightley
Volunteer at the National Tramway Museum http://www.tramway.co.uk
Railway modeller and webmaster at http://www.talkingtgauge.net

Lloyds3d
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:52 am

Re: Support layers lifting

Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:28 am

Why is it that whenever something doesn't do what the user wants, then it's got to be a bug???
Are you serious? If not a bug, not a strong aspect of S3D considering I had already reinforced them with boxes. If they are too tall to print then isn't that the programs function to make sure they do. At the very minimum I shouldn't have to even worry about supports falling over. Other slicers Ive used they are welded to the raft, as they should be.

dorsai3d
Posts: 237
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:01 am

Re: Support layers lifting

Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:26 pm

What's your support separation setting there? Because tall slender things like to fall over when forces (like printing) are applied to the top. You probably have a bottom separation layer between your peseudo-raft and the support, so it's not going to stick very well – that's the point of support separation settings after all. You can set up multiple processes to print the first few layers (your raft and initial support layer) at a lower resolution, higher temperature, and no support separation. Will get things done faster as well as help your tall pillar stay put.

Instead of coming up with ever more complicated workarounds, why not address the problem at its root - your first layer doesn't adhere to the bed well. Solve that and you won't even need the raft/raft-like-object.

Also, for bonus ease-of-use, switch from ABS to PLA, PET, nGen, or hell, even nylon; you'll have an easier time printing things.

That print/model looks excellent, though - great details!

Heutinck
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:14 am

Re: Support layers lifting

Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:07 am

dkightley wrote:
These supports fell over because they were tall, thin and not strong enough. You can't do anything about height, but they can be made thicker by adding some inflation distance and stronger by adding infill angles. A simple angle pattern is: 45, 45, 45, 45, 45, -45. This give one support layer in six at 90 degrees....an amazing increase in strength.
+1 to this. I had an issue with supports curling up. I saw Doug post this in another article and it definetly solved that problem.

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