upsm
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:37 am

Re: Undersized holes

Leeway wrote:Off topic a bit here, but why must we use meshes and STL files? Isn't there another model output that yields smoother geometry? That can be sliced? STL format may actually be a stumbling block, though it is the universal file type.
Just curious here.
The relativly new (2009-2011) file formats that's introduced for 3D printing purposes are AMF and 3MF but only few slicers support it (for e.g. Simplify3D don't support neither AMF nor 3MF, MeshMixer support 3MF, Slic3r support AMF..) and very few CAD tools export it :( (tldr version - amf created by consortium, 3mf created by microsoft, both good, both still poorly supported):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additive_ ... ile_Format
http://www.3mf.io/what-is-3mf/
http://blog.grabcad.com/blog/2015/07/21/amf-vs-3mf/


SolidWorks can slice anything solidworks know how to use (so STEP and IGES without a problem) but I doubt it helps anyone (since it cost arm and a leg and requires win10 to work with 3d printers) ..
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Jeff_Birt
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Undersized holes

I think you have to be realistic about what you expect. A good drill bit is perhaps within +-.0005", add in the vagaries of the process itself and your lucky to be within 0.001". You are never going to be that accurate with FFF. There are other 3D print processes that might be close but the surface finish still might not be acceptable (like a bushing done with laser centered metal).

When the machine lays down one line of plastic it is nominally in the correct place/size. By they I mean it is offset to account for the nominal width of the extruded plastic. Since the extrusion width has some vagaries so does the actual size of your final part, sometimes the extrusion will be oversized and sometimes under. Don't forget about shrinkage when cooling either! What you are doing when you are 'calibrating' the OD of your part is pushing the natural variations in the printing process in, so any holes are likely a bit amore undersized than they would otherwise be.

If hole ID is important than drill it to size.
Scott_M
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:31 am
Location: Ohio

Re: Undersized holes

Well being a new member it seems my posts are being delayed to be approved by a moderator. I replied yesterday morning and it just showed up this morning. If you missed it , it is back on page one, post 5.
Maybe I am good to go now.

There have been many very good replies to my question, thanks for that ! As stated in my original post, I do understand the problem and some of the issues involved in solving it. I just find it hard to believe that 3D printing has come this far and the problem still exists. I have been a machinist for close to 40 years and running CNC equipment for 15, If any of my machines missed the mark by a whole tool diameter ( .4mm nozzle - .015 undersized holes ) I'd say there was a problem. I am not expecting it to be perfect but I would like it to be as close as the outside dimensions that I am getting +- .001"/ .003". If I have a part that needs to fit a shaft than it will be drilled or reamed, no problem. But If I just need a clearance hole for a screw I should not have to re-machine it or design around it. I know a lot of the folks using these machines are only worried that their Yoda figurines look nice but if the process really wants to grow it needs to work on both the inside as well as the outside. If not, it will never be taken very seriously and remain in the "cool toy" category.

Many thanks for all of your detailed replies and hopefully more people will find it unacceptable and some clever code jockey will figure it out and bring the process up to speed.

Thanks again

Scott
Jeff_Birt
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Undersized holes

Scott,

Think of it this way: would you expect your band saw to be within 0.003"? No you would not but a band saw is a great tool and the precision of cut and surface finish are perfectly fine for many applications. A lot of the time though you start by cutting your stock close to size on the band saw and then finish machine it on the lathe/mill.

A FFF 3D printer can be good but it is not that precise. The fact that they are all advertised in units of 'microns' is marketing BS. I was testing some small test prints with PLA the other day and a 1" cube was about 0.990" in X,Y and 1.010" in Z. That is pretty good for this type of 3D printing. As the size of the part increases the amount (in total distance) of shrinkage increases and getting an 'exact' size is more difficult without some experimentation. I tend to design things to try and account for this as much as I can. For a screw clearance hole if you don't want to drill it out than size it for a loose fit.

Other types of 3D printing can be more precise but the machinery involved is also much, much more expensive. A month or so ago Jay Leno was showing some parts for old cars they laser scanned and had 3D printed (metal laser sintering). The parts looked great, and the total cost to get them made was not bad but the machine was about a million bucks. I would also guarantee you that on many such parts there is still finish machining to be done.
Scott_M
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:31 am
Location: Ohio

Re: Undersized holes

Hi Jeff
Please don't think I am being difficult, I just don't understand why nobody has fixed a "know issue" since the inception of the process. I am getting wonderful prints with great accuracy, on the outside of my parts L W and height. I really don't think it is unrealistic to want that on inside dimensions as well.
To use your band saw analogy it would be more like the band saw cuts square on one side of the cut but not the other.
I have many uses for my printer and I like it, I also understand it's short comings. But is it wrong to want more or better ? If we didn't, things would never progress.

Scott
Scott_M
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:31 am
Location: Ohio

Re: Undersized holes

Jeff
The more I think about it...the band saw analogy doesn't work. The hardware is fine, it is a software problem. I always tell people unfamiliar to CNC that "The machine will go exactly where you tell it to, even if it's wrong" In the case of undersized holes I am pretty sure our machine are following the programmed path, it is just that the path is wrong for the desired result. In the early days of CNC there were also issues but clever programmers came up with things like Cutter radius compensation and tool wear offset to fix these issues. In one of the links provided by upsm somebody came up with "Arc Compensation" to fix this problem, why it has not been developed further is the big question.

Many thanks for your thoughts

Scott
wirlybird
Posts: 1374
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:32 pm

Re: Undersized holes

I have been thinking on this also. You would think a compensation could be built in but there may be too many variables for it to be reliable. I think the error on the hole id would decrease as the hole gets bigger. Plus different materials etc.
I agree that it should be doable but maybe there is something in how the slicer calculates that if you fix "this" it pushes the error somewhere else.
Scott_M
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:31 am
Location: Ohio

Re: Undersized holes

I agree whirlybird but I am sure some clever programmer could make it work.

I think it would need to be some user input fields something like
Offset interior Loops with options like a finite dimension or percentage of extrusion width.
And you are correct that the problem is worse on smaller features so maybe some way to define that.
I am also new to "Meshes", I have always used solid models which actually have features and walls and holes. It may be hard to define such things in the software world with only the triangles to work with.
But I don't really know.

Scott
upsm
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:37 am

Re: Undersized holes

Scott_M wrote:In one of the links provided by upsm somebody came up with "Arc Compensation" to fix this problem, why it has not been developed further is the big question.
I can guess only but I believe it all revolves around $$$. The link you mentioned, it's Adrian's work, the guy who started the RepRap project and the whole 3D printing revolution. He's a scientist that's looking at all this as a big science experiment. He gave the "science" behind the problem and "initial" solution. That's what you can expect from scientists. Now someone should take his work (and Chris's work and work of few others) and put it into good use. But who? We come back to $$$.

Look at the history of slicers. We had original (very basic) slicer made by Adrian that few ppl used. Then Enrique started making Skeinforge and that was the "industry standard" for many years. Few people know but Enrique never owned a 3D printer. He was offered one many times as a gift, he never wanted one. He was writing that software purely out of wish to "better himself". He did it best he could but number of issues remained that were hard to fix "virtually". There were number of patches for skeinforge seen in the wild (many made by Chris) that fixed some of the problems but then the public turned to new and shiny and fast slicer with gui and skeinforge development stopped. In the meantime few other slicers came and went unnoticed, all of them, like skeinforge, handled "images". The way skeinforge (and the early slicers) worked is they generated 2d image of every slice and then run a "feature recognition" algorithm to create G-Code out of that image. That process have a lot of benefits (for e.g. you can easily define resolution, you are very immune to non manifold objects etc) but it is painfully slow. Slic3r, Netfabb and other "new kids in the block" were looking at vectors and not bitmaps and they were thousands of times faster, offered real time preview etc. so skeinforge died. Many of the problems that skeinforge had solved never went into all these new and shiny slicers. The "wrong hole size" is one of them. It was not fully solved but you could configure it for your printer and your material and your parts would come out perfect. Calibration was painful but once done..

Anyhow, skeinforge is done and forgotten, what do we have now
- Slic3r - free
- Cura - free
- Craftware - free
- Kisslicer - almost free
- reprap-pro - free
- kiri - free
- e3d - free
- Axion - free
- Simplify3D - not free
- MeshMixer - free but does not support all printers
- SolidWorks - costs arm and a leg and requires win10 to slice (no clue if it works at all, never see it in action)
...

The free ones are mostly "one man show" with some contributions. For e.g. the biggest contribution to world of slicers was the work of that german guy who wrote master thesis on slicers and created a patch for Slic3r that implements the variable layer height ( more here ) and while he did everything, did the research, wrote the paper, wrote the code, this feature is still not implemented in all slicers!! Why? Well it takes time, as I said, most of these slicers are one man show, that man usually have a dayjob... ignoring SolidWorks and MeshMixer for a sec as they are still halfbaked solutions, Simplify3D is actually the only slicer getting any "real money" so the expectation to get the bleeding edge features from them is present. They used to deliver on that big time, these past years no so :(, maybe it will change soon who knows.. but compare this with the CAM software in milling world, the cheapest CAM I know of that's usable is ~$200 (Aspire) and it's "pathetic" compared to other "serious" ones. More then 50% of cnc users paid way more then $200 for the software, many users, lot of licences, lot of $$$$, companies invest in research and solve problems. Compare that with reprap/repstrap biz? 99% of users use free open source slicers and very very very few are willing to donate some $$$ to those doing research. Most will rather donate to a YT channel talking about how to do stuff they will never actually do, then donate some $$$ to research and development.

That's my view on it. Might be skewed, dunno. Maybe the reasons are completely different, but in my opinion, it's the time and the cache that are "why we don't have this or that feature". And many will tell you that you are crazy for paying 150 for Simplify3D when you have Cura or Slic3r for free and "it does the same thing", even "Slic3r does better bridging than Simplify3D, why did you waste money, you better spend it on new %$#^@#" .. etc etc.. probbly if market was prepared to put $$ where their mouth is the slicers would have more features, do things better, smarter, faster.. but for now .. I drill my holes after printing
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Scott_M
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:31 am
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Re: Undersized holes

upsm
Thank you very much for your very detailed posts, I learned some new stuff :) and I always like it when that happens.
You are probably exactly right about the $$$ being the stumbling block.
There is an old adage " Build a better mouse trap, and the world will beat a path to your door"

And while we are waiting for the better mouse trap, I like you will drill the holes :(

and once again thank you for your thoughtful posts.

Respectfully
Scott

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