I my fight against oozing trails, and the mess of cleaning it afterward, i have done quite a few tests to get wood filamant to "behave", and i think i have ended up with the perfect solution, but for that to work i need a few options.
The Extra row of settings needed, would be for, when toolhead is moving in "Island To Island" mode, and the one there, can become "On Same Island" mode.
I have tried a lot of different options for printing wood, and the problem when changing from island to island, seems to be that the wood, laid down already increases slightly in mass, and is stretched when moving from one island to another, Lifts have been tested, and lifting seems to solve the problem, but when printing there is no need for the retraction lift to work, when retracting within an island. What i am printing, is a Hi-Detailed 3D model that does about 30-40 retractions on almost all layers, but moving between 2 islands, only 1 Retraction needs the lift during retraction.
Some filaments might need different settings, to achieve the right effect.
I found that when retracting on wood filament, it was best to set Extra restart distance 0.2 mm, and if even Coasting got both options as well, you could say coast the last 0,6 mm before moving to another island, that in conjunction with Extra restartdistance when entrering the new island on 0.8 mm, would in theory end up with the same extra restart as 0.2 extra used on all other retractions. But the move from island to island, would be completely invisible, as toolhead in theory is empty, and raised above the print, during the move.
Would be fantastic, if the retraction options could be linked to Filaments, and not Profile.
We might not be able to stop oozing, but with this extra row of settings, we might get very close.
There might be a few options in here that might help others if they were made. I have not yet had the need to look at All-Metal toolheads, as i have not had the need for high temp filaments, (>250 degrees, took me a LOT of reading to finally nail, when All-Metal is needed). What i have also read is that Retraction is not really good with All-Metal, and it seems that the problem is that the filament gets too cold when retracted. That "might" be solved if, you could retract, raise the toolhead, and when raised and arrived at new position, re-retract, and then lower the head, maybe even a delay setting, between re-retract and lowering, in milli secs if possible, alternatively you can raise it higher for longer reheat time. That might be just give the filament/extruder the time it needs to be at printing temp, all through. Again to do this, 2 row options are still needed, and as far as i can see the only thing essentially in getting All-Metal heads to work, is weather re-retraction happens before or after lowering the toolhead after retraction.
As these settings are there to not ooze, i think it is safe to say, that there is no reason to treat part to part any differently than island to island. Thereby making "Only retract when crossing open spaces" obsolete. Maybe moving "Force retraction between layers" and "Minimum travel for retraction" to the retraction settings, and have them join the Filament profile.
Kind regards
Frank Sonne
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Frank Sonne
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:43 am
Re: Retraction, needs more options
Have you tested with "Minimum travel for retraction" and disabling "Forced retraction between layers"? This should trigger vertical lift only when the travel distance is greater than the distance set in the Minimum travel for retraction setting.Frank Sonne wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:35 pm I my fight against oozing trails, and the mess of cleaning it afterward, i have done quite a few tests to get wood filamant to "behave", and i think i have ended up with the perfect solution, but for that to work i need a few options.
The Extra row of settings needed, would be for, when toolhead is moving in "Island To Island" mode, and the one there, can become "On Same Island" mode.
I have tried a lot of different options for printing wood, and the problem when changing from island to island, seems to be that the wood, laid down already increases slightly in mass, and is stretched when moving from one island to another, Lifts have been tested, and lifting seems to solve the problem, but when printing there is no need for the retraction lift to work, when retracting within an island. What i am printing, is a Hi-Detailed 3D model that does about 30-40 retractions on almost all layers, but moving between 2 islands, only 1 Retraction needs the lift during retraction.
Some filaments might need different settings, to achieve the right effect.
I found that when retracting on wood filament, it was best to set Extra restart distance 0.2 mm, and if even Coasting got both options as well, you could say coast the last 0,6 mm before moving to another island, that in conjunction with Extra restartdistance when entrering the new island on 0.8 mm, would in theory end up with the same extra restart as 0.2 extra used on all other retractions. But the move from island to island, would be completely invisible, as toolhead in theory is empty, and raised above the print, during the move.
Would be fantastic, if the retraction options could be linked to Filaments, and not Profile.
We might not be able to stop oozing, but with this extra row of settings, we might get very close.
There might be a few options in here that might help others if they were made. I have not yet had the need to look at All-Metal toolheads, as i have not had the need for high temp filaments, (>250 degrees, took me a LOT of reading to finally nail, when All-Metal is needed). What i have also read is that Retraction is not really good with All-Metal, and it seems that the problem is that the filament gets too cold when retracted. That "might" be solved if, you could retract, raise the toolhead, and when raised and arrived at new position, re-retract, and then lower the head, maybe even a delay setting, between re-retract and lowering, in milli secs if possible, alternatively you can raise it higher for longer reheat time. That might be just give the filament/extruder the time it needs to be at printing temp, all through. Again to do this, 2 row options are still needed, and as far as i can see the only thing essentially in getting All-Metal heads to work, is weather re-retraction happens before or after lowering the toolhead after retraction.
As these settings are there to not ooze, i think it is safe to say, that there is no reason to treat part to part any differently than island to island. Thereby making "Only retract when crossing open spaces" obsolete. Maybe moving "Force retraction between layers" and "Minimum travel for retraction" to the retraction settings, and have them join the Filament profile.
Kind regards
Frank Sonne
"A bird does not sing because it has an answer. It sings because it has a song."
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Frank Sonne
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:43 am
Re: Retraction, needs more options
Hi Jake,
Yes, i have tried every single setting in FFF Settings. Except Bridging settings and Tool change.
Minimum Travel for Retraction does not solve the Island to Island until the 2 islands are more than the minimum travel distance apart, so that would help me when the islands have been printed far enough apart to get above that minimum distance. So in the end i turned it off, but use it once in while, good for Part to Part if you set it to more distance between parts that the distance you put parts on print table.
Disabling Force retraction between layers was one of the first options i disabled, it seems the only effect i get from that is even more over extrusion at layer shifts. Still fiddling with Coasting to get rid of it.
I think my problem lies a bit with the ambiguous terms part to part, open spaces and crossing outlines. Part to Part, what is the diff between part to part and island to island, I think Islands are a much better description. An Island can ONLY be surrounded by an outline. Two islands can be separated by printed or un-printed area below, does Open Spaces include both? My tests say no, it crosses either without prejudice, once its been printed. I have another thread regarding the way Movement behavior Avoid Crossing Outlines behave, a few moves there are oozing in all the wrong places, so that is a different issue, but still related to oozing. I think with streamlining the terms, to only be "Inside same Island" and "Island to Island" the user is able to control how the printer does either. For the programmer it looks easier from my perspective, if the move is Inside Island, fire on set of settings, if move is to a different Island fire another set of settings and that is determined by weather or not it crosses an Outline. And if move is from Island to Island, then Avoid Crossing Outlines becomes obsolete, as that is the case when moving Island to Island anyway.
When crossing from island to island you need some more aggressive settings for some filament types not to ooze, but the ooze inside islands may not be a problem, so the same filament can freely oozing inside islands. Or you can setup it should retract 4 mm and lift .2 mm when I2I, but only retract 1 mm and no lift when staying on Island. Or a million combinations of Retraction Distance, Extra restart, Lift, Speed, Coasting Distance and Wipe for either. All these settings seem to be directly related to Filament types and not really Profile specific. Maybe even specific to a specific brand filament. Maybe manufacturers could make files that contain their recommendations for their different filaments, you can download and install. Or even exchange between ourselves, so everyone does not have to go through the same tedious process of getting the right settings. IMO Filaments are not even related to Profiles, they are a different setting all together. Maybe even the Extruder is more related to Filaments than Profiles as well. Filament acts differently through 0.4 and 0.6 mm nozzles. For me, to get the quality i have now, i have thrown away kgs of filament, to get here. To have the option to share filament specific files would make 3D printing a whole lot easier than it is today.
I could get the same effect from the scripts page, IF Retraction script was split in 2, one for Island to Island and one for Inside Island, but setting in the interface would be a LOT easier, than finding g-codes to do it.
And as i pointed out, as this is filament type related, why spread it out on different settings pages, finding all the right places to check or uncheck all the right settings. I think this would Simplify ooze control (Pun very much intended), and kill off a few ambiguous terms.
Regards
Frank
Yes, i have tried every single setting in FFF Settings. Except Bridging settings and Tool change.
Minimum Travel for Retraction does not solve the Island to Island until the 2 islands are more than the minimum travel distance apart, so that would help me when the islands have been printed far enough apart to get above that minimum distance. So in the end i turned it off, but use it once in while, good for Part to Part if you set it to more distance between parts that the distance you put parts on print table.
Disabling Force retraction between layers was one of the first options i disabled, it seems the only effect i get from that is even more over extrusion at layer shifts. Still fiddling with Coasting to get rid of it.
I think my problem lies a bit with the ambiguous terms part to part, open spaces and crossing outlines. Part to Part, what is the diff between part to part and island to island, I think Islands are a much better description. An Island can ONLY be surrounded by an outline. Two islands can be separated by printed or un-printed area below, does Open Spaces include both? My tests say no, it crosses either without prejudice, once its been printed. I have another thread regarding the way Movement behavior Avoid Crossing Outlines behave, a few moves there are oozing in all the wrong places, so that is a different issue, but still related to oozing. I think with streamlining the terms, to only be "Inside same Island" and "Island to Island" the user is able to control how the printer does either. For the programmer it looks easier from my perspective, if the move is Inside Island, fire on set of settings, if move is to a different Island fire another set of settings and that is determined by weather or not it crosses an Outline. And if move is from Island to Island, then Avoid Crossing Outlines becomes obsolete, as that is the case when moving Island to Island anyway.
When crossing from island to island you need some more aggressive settings for some filament types not to ooze, but the ooze inside islands may not be a problem, so the same filament can freely oozing inside islands. Or you can setup it should retract 4 mm and lift .2 mm when I2I, but only retract 1 mm and no lift when staying on Island. Or a million combinations of Retraction Distance, Extra restart, Lift, Speed, Coasting Distance and Wipe for either. All these settings seem to be directly related to Filament types and not really Profile specific. Maybe even specific to a specific brand filament. Maybe manufacturers could make files that contain their recommendations for their different filaments, you can download and install. Or even exchange between ourselves, so everyone does not have to go through the same tedious process of getting the right settings. IMO Filaments are not even related to Profiles, they are a different setting all together. Maybe even the Extruder is more related to Filaments than Profiles as well. Filament acts differently through 0.4 and 0.6 mm nozzles. For me, to get the quality i have now, i have thrown away kgs of filament, to get here. To have the option to share filament specific files would make 3D printing a whole lot easier than it is today.
I could get the same effect from the scripts page, IF Retraction script was split in 2, one for Island to Island and one for Inside Island, but setting in the interface would be a LOT easier, than finding g-codes to do it.
And as i pointed out, as this is filament type related, why spread it out on different settings pages, finding all the right places to check or uncheck all the right settings. I think this would Simplify ooze control (Pun very much intended), and kill off a few ambiguous terms.
Regards
Frank
-
Frank Sonne
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:43 am
Re: Retraction, needs more options
Come to think of it.
The two modes are not Inside same Island and Island to Island, but a question of weather "Outline is Crossed or Not" , because the essens above is weather or not one or more Outlines are crossed, and use retraction, coast and wipe, depending on crossing or not crossing the outlines.
And lastly, is how to save these settings. If Filament options should be saved, as it does now, as a subclass of profile, or saved as their own "Filament Profile" in separate files, that can be shared.
As i see it, Profiles are mostly about personal preference, whereas Filament has nothing to do with personal preference, as Filament should act the same, under the same conditions, which are Temps on Bed and Extruder, Nozzle extrusion multiplier, size and width, Retraction, Coast and Wipe, during travel moves either crossing or not crossing outlines.
Filament Control, Simplified...
Regards
Frank
The two modes are not Inside same Island and Island to Island, but a question of weather "Outline is Crossed or Not" , because the essens above is weather or not one or more Outlines are crossed, and use retraction, coast and wipe, depending on crossing or not crossing the outlines.
And lastly, is how to save these settings. If Filament options should be saved, as it does now, as a subclass of profile, or saved as their own "Filament Profile" in separate files, that can be shared.
As i see it, Profiles are mostly about personal preference, whereas Filament has nothing to do with personal preference, as Filament should act the same, under the same conditions, which are Temps on Bed and Extruder, Nozzle extrusion multiplier, size and width, Retraction, Coast and Wipe, during travel moves either crossing or not crossing outlines.
Filament Control, Simplified...
Regards
Frank
-
Frank Sonne
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:43 am
Re: Retraction, needs more options
I am forgetting something.
Solid and Infill Layers, there is a big difference, as Infill layer are not visible from the outside, but Solid layers are.
So Solid layers need to be treated Filament wise as, "Crossing Outlines", as the whole Retraction Issue is about visible surfaces with different Filaments.
Though Solid and Outline should be treated as equals, there is one major difference between the two, and that is how they are printed, as they are so vertically or horizontally. Travel movements, do they have to follow currently printing layer pattern, or not. Should some filament ooze during travel move, these are visible with most filaments, but a line that is in the same direction as current layer is more invisible, than a line in some random direction. Maybe the Avoid Crossing Outline for travel movements, apply during Solid layers, but to do so, it should only move in currently printing layers direction during travel moves.
Question here is, if Solid layers need setting like "crossing outlines or not", or a checkbox to indicate if Solid layers ignore Lift or not. This does not cure, filament pulled from nozzle during travle move, hence the need for currently printing layer direction travle moves, also.
Also found Filament Diameter, price and density settings that should follow Filament Profile.
Filament and layer application settings, to be able to gather, what should be same information about filaments for any printer. For any piece of software for that matter, which means that manufactures would only have to do them once, and if their specs change, they update. Only thing they cannot put in is the filament price, but that could be done by 2 settings, Weight and Price.
Application speeds, Recommendation from manufacturer on optimal application speeds.
Minimum Nozzle size.
1. layer application settings. If they have to supply the information, they may improve for better numbers.
With the appearance of electrically leading materials, a few numbers for that might be an idea.
Color, I have found one color that need a few centigrade less, but that might be too detailed.
Just trying to think of everything, that may relate, and not really be variables. Maybe manufacturers could make better products, if they could adjust different settings for different colors, who knows, if its a setting for the manufacturer, they will start focusing on minute details to improve, and if all they have to do is change it themselves, when we use their product, you produce with every filament to the manufacturers optimal specifications. One day 3D printers might read the bar code from the filament spool, and download the specific filament profile, and you do perfect print every time you put in any filament in your 3D Printer. Until then, a Filament Profile Name/No on spools, that you then can find at the manufacturers product page, download and import to Simplify. For this to ever happen, someone must support the option in the first place. And until manufacturers get them done, we can do them ourselves, and exchange the information. Only 1 has to start, then we can tell the others to do profiles or we buy with the ones who do... Its not like we do not pay a LOT of money for filament, at least let the manufacturer do all the kgs of test to find optimal settings for filament, and setup a download site.
Maybe this will lead to 100% perfect print, because manufacturers can set any setting on our printers to get the perfect result, be it traveling around or printing.
Did i forget a Filament related setting?
Solid and Infill Layers, there is a big difference, as Infill layer are not visible from the outside, but Solid layers are.
So Solid layers need to be treated Filament wise as, "Crossing Outlines", as the whole Retraction Issue is about visible surfaces with different Filaments.
Though Solid and Outline should be treated as equals, there is one major difference between the two, and that is how they are printed, as they are so vertically or horizontally. Travel movements, do they have to follow currently printing layer pattern, or not. Should some filament ooze during travel move, these are visible with most filaments, but a line that is in the same direction as current layer is more invisible, than a line in some random direction. Maybe the Avoid Crossing Outline for travel movements, apply during Solid layers, but to do so, it should only move in currently printing layers direction during travel moves.
Question here is, if Solid layers need setting like "crossing outlines or not", or a checkbox to indicate if Solid layers ignore Lift or not. This does not cure, filament pulled from nozzle during travle move, hence the need for currently printing layer direction travle moves, also.
Also found Filament Diameter, price and density settings that should follow Filament Profile.
Filament and layer application settings, to be able to gather, what should be same information about filaments for any printer. For any piece of software for that matter, which means that manufactures would only have to do them once, and if their specs change, they update. Only thing they cannot put in is the filament price, but that could be done by 2 settings, Weight and Price.
Application speeds, Recommendation from manufacturer on optimal application speeds.
Minimum Nozzle size.
1. layer application settings. If they have to supply the information, they may improve for better numbers.
With the appearance of electrically leading materials, a few numbers for that might be an idea.
Color, I have found one color that need a few centigrade less, but that might be too detailed.
Just trying to think of everything, that may relate, and not really be variables. Maybe manufacturers could make better products, if they could adjust different settings for different colors, who knows, if its a setting for the manufacturer, they will start focusing on minute details to improve, and if all they have to do is change it themselves, when we use their product, you produce with every filament to the manufacturers optimal specifications. One day 3D printers might read the bar code from the filament spool, and download the specific filament profile, and you do perfect print every time you put in any filament in your 3D Printer. Until then, a Filament Profile Name/No on spools, that you then can find at the manufacturers product page, download and import to Simplify. For this to ever happen, someone must support the option in the first place. And until manufacturers get them done, we can do them ourselves, and exchange the information. Only 1 has to start, then we can tell the others to do profiles or we buy with the ones who do... Its not like we do not pay a LOT of money for filament, at least let the manufacturer do all the kgs of test to find optimal settings for filament, and setup a download site.
Maybe this will lead to 100% perfect print, because manufacturers can set any setting on our printers to get the perfect result, be it traveling around or printing.
Did i forget a Filament related setting?
