bananaman
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:46 am

Out of ideas - print surface issue

Hi, first I have had six printers. I use four right now. All are kits. Three give fantastic results, one doesn't.
The troublesome printer is a hybrid Wombot Exilis and Gmax 1.5. I call it the Wogmax. Uses Ramps and Marlin 1.1.0-RC7
I have done the calibrations needed, eSteps, extruder, PID, stepper current etc and then rechecked. Dimensionally, prints are very good. It has no slop, z is very good, belts and tight.
Its using an original J-head 0.5mm. I've only been printing with PLA on this one.
I've tried print speed changes, layer height, extrusion multiplier, temperature, while they vary what happens they don't stop it. At the moment extrusion multiplier it is 1.2 for PLA. I've tried Auto and manual. Fan on/off. I confirmed the nozzle is 0.5mm.
Initially I thought it was humidity affected filament. I've tried 2 other new out of box brands and get the same finish.
One strange behavior is that at very slow extrusions I can see the filament "spits" occasionally. Increasing the rate stops it.

While the finish on this big rook looks kind of cool like a stone texture, it isn't right. Kind of like over extrusion and moire. Its like its over extruding then underextruding cyclically very quickly. In other words pulsing. This seemed to be a driver current problem or stepper issue. I adjusted the current and replaced the stepper. Still the same basic underlying issue exists.

Doing calibration cubes, not one looks right. They are layer true and straight, but the finish is not as good as it should be, maybe I expect too much.

The Gmax extruder uses a fixed spring for extruder tension. Perhaps this is too strong. That about what's left. I'll post a couple more pics for comparisons.
rook.jpg
bananaman
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Out of ideas - print surface issue

This rocket shell is printing now.
OK but not as good as it should be.
Ideas?
I'm out of them...............
shell.jpg
bananaman
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Out of ideas - print surface issue

This finish is typical of my other printers. Pretty well tuned I think.
Attachments
statue.jpg
arhi
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:13 pm

Re: Out of ideas - print surface issue

the images are pretty low res to be able to say for sure but that "stone" to me looks like it's too hot
as for the white rocket it looks like some tugging issue with extruder. how is the spool mounted there and how the path from spool to extruder goes? .. I had similar crappy finish when my spool was in corner above printer on some not very smooth roller, so it took some force to pull the filament and depending on where the X of the printer is the pull required was different enough that in combo with puny stepper motor in extruder different X positions had different extrusion rate due to different force needed to pull filament from the spool :( ... I solved it initially by replacing direct drive with some geared extruder and later on moved spool on to bearing supported spool holder (so it rotates smoothly) and a ptfe tube between exit from spool holder and the extruder itself (seen that trick on UP!Plus2) this way position of the extruder does not affect in any way the force required to pull filament off the spool ...

I had similar problem also with BfB PLA 3mm filament (transparent, very very very hard, very very brittle) as the darn thing was hard to uncoil and it was rotating while uncoiling so I had to make a spool holder with 2 axes of freedom
Image
the top is skyhook designed by nophead http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:85
there is a bearing inside so the whole contraption rotates around Z axis (1st axis of freedom) and of course spool unwind (2nd axis of freedom) this helped significantly with that hard PLA (didn't influence abs/pp/hdpe at all but when I had it I used it for all plastics at the time, when I stopped purchasing PLA from BfB i scrapped it)

So imo picno1 - you have too much heat there (and maybe tuggin problem), picno2 - you have tuggin problem .. I might be wrong as those are not really high res images .. I'd like to see that under some other light and at better resolution photos..

now on the second img (white rocket) I think I see some ringing too, did you try a ringing test on that printer? might be also contributing to the overall problems with surface quality
gcodestat integrates with Simplify3D and allow you to
Calculate print time accurately (acceleration, max speed, junction deviation all taken into consideration)
Embed M117 codes into G-Code
Upload your G-Code directly to Octoprint
open source and unlicence
arhi
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:13 pm

Re: Out of ideas - print surface issue

here's why I think it's tuggin, these are imo tell tell signs
tuggin tell tell signs
tuggin tell tell signs
gcodestat integrates with Simplify3D and allow you to
Calculate print time accurately (acceleration, max speed, junction deviation all taken into consideration)
Embed M117 codes into G-Code
Upload your G-Code directly to Octoprint
open source and unlicence
bananaman
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Out of ideas - print surface issue

Thanks for replying. Spool is on bearings and filament comes off very easily. There is no tugging. I've tried temps from 190 to 220 and it changes but underlying cause still evident. Plus it causes other hassles. Stepper motor is the same spec as Gmax 1.5+.

Take off the belts and everything slides smooth with no slop.

Doing this on phone, hopefully pic shows spool. The filament sits loose and never gets tight. This was the print start.
20161025_190411.jpeg
bananaman
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Out of ideas - print surface issue

This is the bottom end of a 40mm single wall cube I rescued from the bin.
It looks OK, but you can see the "micro pulses". It should be a clear green string, not like grains of green rice laid end to end.
It does this with other filament too.
40mm cube.jpg
wirlybird
Posts: 1374
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:32 pm

Re: Out of ideas - print surface issue

Have you tried this "problem" filament in one of the other printers to make sure it gives a good print? I wonder because of the spitting. that really sounds like wet filament. Anyway that could eliminate it a s part of the issue.

Have you measured the filament diameter to see if maybe it is really off size?

I don't know your machines but I think 1.2 on the extrusion multiplier is high for PLA. I run at 90 and maybe go 5% either way but that is it.

I have gotten a similar look like the green box and thought it was under extrusion but didn't follow through on figuring it out since I was testing something else at the time!

I know my ideas aren't great but it is just initial thoughts.
bananaman
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Out of ideas - print surface issue

Yep, that exact same green filament prints great on another machine.
The multiplier is high because it is far worse (under extruded) at 0.9, which is what the other printers use just fine.
Not this one though.
Notice the first layer or two of the cube section is clear, that is how the rest should be?
This why I'm stumped, but the answer is out there somewhere.
wirlybird
Posts: 1374
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:32 pm

Re: Out of ideas - print surface issue

Could it be restricted in the extruder? Dirty gear or worn or out of align for the filament path or feed path? PTFE tube crimped or partially blocked or nozzle partially blocked?

I am going with under extrusion is the issue and compensating with the multiplier is just band-aiding it.

How does the filament extrude if you do it by hand?

Just random thoughts here!!

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